Book Club Discussions!

[darkelf105]

Our first discussion board….


Harold Bloom is a renowned and award-winning literary critic and in his introduction is a book of literary criticism of “The Handmaid’s Tale” he writes that the book shouldn’t be read as a dystopian look at the future of American politics but as a Gothic tale that warns against the ugly streak of Puritanism that America has never gotten out of its system. Mr. Bloom is right that the book is definitely a warning against the fanaticism and culture of control that seems to rear its monstrous head in America and then slumbers, only to be awoken later, but Mr. Bloom also states that Margaret Atwood’s reason for writing the book—that this book is about what happens when the common statements made about women by the Christian Right, in particular, are taken to their logical conclusion—is wrong. Mr. Bloom feels that no one in America could possibly get away with telling women to pop those babies out and stay in the kitchen. And yet, even now as I sit at my desk at work, I am looking at a book by a woman who advocates that women should stay home with their children (nothing wrong with that, if that’s your cup of tea) and that the man should, absolutely, no questions asked, be in charge of the household (again nothing particularly wrong with that, if that is how you and your mate decide to run things) and a book by Dr. Laura Schlessinger that basically turns a marriage into the relationship of a pet and its owner (except that the owner must submit to the pet’s wishes because he is the man and breadwinner). The title of the book is “The Proper Care And Feeding Of A Husband” and I have read it cover to cover. The premise is basically that women are too selfish in marriage and need to put their spouse first. Which is fine, advocating unselfishness, but Dr. Schlessinger also pretty much states that a man is no better than an iguana or a hamster and that feeding him and loving him like you would your doggie is the key to a happy marriage. She writes that marriage is about as complicated as taking care of your cat. It is also one-sided, total responsibility for the marriage rests in what the woman does and says. (Granted, she apparently wrote a book for men on how to treat women, but I have not read it because I don’t think I could stomach it). It is a bestseller on the non-fiction lists. I checked--this particular volume has over 55 circs. Impressive for a volume just added to the catalogue six months ago. So Americans are reading these works. The problem with them in my opinion isn’t what they say, as abhorrent as I find many of the ideas, but that they are directed to ALL women in America and much of their political commentary is basically, well America sucks because women aren’t doing the things we advocate. So my question to you dear members is, do you think that Bloom is right and that the issues in the “Handmaid’s Tale” are no longer a problem and that the only people who worry about these things are silly feminists that don’t realize there is no more need for feminism or is there a very real danger of women losing many of the rights to choose that they have recently gained? Keep in mind current political discourse and debate while discussing this.

Comments

[rayechu.livejournal.com]

I have a feeling women today are in the exact some position as the women “before” or the women in 1986. One one hand there was an increase in college attendance for women between 1980 and early 2000. Now the main character, Offred also attended college but I would think logically the more educated and independent a class is the harder time stripping a class of their rights would be.

On the other hand I noticed one of the things mentioned in the book is the lack taboo of writing, especially on signs. Obviously there are a lot of people out there who love to read, but the fact is the bulk of the population does not read very much.
*Emphasis/insertion mine.
According to the 1999 National Household Education Survey, only* 50% of the population aged 25 and over read a newspaper at least once a week, read one or more magazines regularly,and had read a book in the past 6 months.
I see some scary parallels between the text-free signs and the explosion of the use of signs, colors, and symbols (the so called user-friendly interfaces) in our culture when our youth is 97% literate.

One thing that worries me is the huge gap, both mentally and emotionally between generation Y/XY/Why and the new generation me/now/I. There are enough women fighting and aware now to keep things like the pro-life movement at bay and I think that many women in generation Y are connected enough, aware enough, and logical enough to see something like a huge stripping of power coming and get out in time. However I do not think the same of the younger generation. They have grown up submerged in technology and information and by all means should be more connected and empathetic of all beings around them, yet we find it to be the exact opposite. I think the next decade or two are really going to be critical for women and women’s rights.

[darkelf105.livejournal.com]

It is interesting that you mention education and literacy as a possible reason of why the people of the Republic of Gilead let things go so fast. Today people can go to college, and even get a masters degree and still not be EDUCATED. I was reading an article by a Professor at Duke, Duke mind you, who said that even children from the best backgrounds have problems focusing on novels that are longer than two hundred pages and how even though their papers and presentations are glossy and highly professional, they do not connect thoughts readily, lack inner cohesiveness and do not use language effetively or to its fullest extent. It's like this next generation is so wired up they can't think (in Margaret Atwood's words) in more than gasps. So if people who attend the best universities in America have a hard time, say synthesizing material from three disparate sources and writing a cogent thesis about it, perhaps your remarks are not far off--the writing is on the wall, but people can't see it because it's not flashing, moving, and with pictures.

[rayechu.livejournal.com]

I picked literacy and the signs because it was something that really stood out for me. It's much easier for me to see parallels in subjects like that then with something like religion. I think it was neat that the character was smart and all the little tidbits she remembers. But then again, if Offred was as connected as we are now would she have seen something coming and escaped sooner?
Something I was thinking is a handful of educated people aren't going to last against a majority of people, because by default most men will not side with women. America is so polarized about some issues that I wouldn't know what to expect.

Something else I noticed later was that even music was stripped from these women, and that is probably the worst thing yet.

[darkelf105.livejournal.com]

The American Cult of Complacency and Convenience. But that is the next discussion topic :).

[(Anonymous)]

I believe Women's Rights are in danger, and will continue to be so. As long as terms like "feminist" are regarded as insults, and rights to sexual and reproductive independence are compromised, the women's rights movement needs to shout even louder to avoid being drown out forever.
I don't have time to write a proper response, I just checked this as I was browsing, but I'll comment back later.

Newsome

[rayechu.livejournal.com]

My brother used the term feminist today as an insult, and he is 16! I agree with you 100%.

[tbcabbitt.livejournal.com]

I haven't been able to get very far in the book because we've had out of town visitors but just reading the discussions I wanted to put my 2 cents in. I've noticed that this generation of young women have no concept of what women in previous generations had to fight for and just take everything they can do today for granted. When I was going to high school in the 70's women who took classes in math and science were looked on as freaks. I don't know how many times I was told I was too smart for my own good and some of the hobbies I had such as reading science fiction was not very lady like and was discouraged from doing so because only boys are interested in that stuff.
Over the years I've noticed a lessening of these attitudes but it's still very much out there. Growing up my mother was always expected to wait on my father hand and foot because he was the breadwinner and head of the household but when my mother had to get a job to support the family because my father was ill she was still expected to do all she was doing before as well as work. That's not seen today as much especially since most families need two incomes to survive. I think it all comes down to how your raised and what your exposed to as children. Attitudes change but there are still those out there for one reason or another who refuse to do things differently because it was never done that way before. I think it's up to us to continue to fight to change these perceptions because if we become complacent we'll find ourselves back where we started or even worse.
I can see why some people use the word feminist in a derogatory manner because some people take things too far. Those people are in the minority but they seem to bring more attention than the people who are quietly working behind the scenes. Sometimes I roll my eyes at the antics of these people because they really don't help the cause.they just put others in a bad light.
I've been around a number of years and I have to admit things are much better than when I was a young girl but there is still a lot of room for improvement and unfortunately young women today just don't get that. I think it's up to us to educate those around us be they men or women and maybe things will improve for the better on a much larger scale.

[rayechu.livejournal.com]

Well put, Theresa. I knew the input of someone who actually lived through the 80's would be interesting. How do you think the media portrays the changes in women’s rights? How does the media portray women in general? Are the events happening now (like removal of abortion clinics and the attempt of amendments against gay marriage and all scenarios abortion) something that you have noticed from the 80's to now, or is it a more current movement?
Also does anyone know....?
*SEMI-SPOILER*
*
*
Do you know if the "cutting" video recording is based on a real event?

[tbcabbitt.livejournal.com]

Sorry about the delay in responding. My Mother was sick and I needed to take care of her.

I think the media is the biggest abuser in perpetuating stereotypes. Take for example news anchors. They have female news anchors now but do you notice they're paired with a male anchor? It's like yes,we acknowledge women doing this job but she still needs a man to look after her. And they never seem to report women's issues fairly. I love the way they use them as fluff pieces when there isn't any "real" news to report. Women's rights rallies used to be a big item on the news. They seemed to report the fight for women's rights as a legitimate news story but now they sort of look at themselves as enlightened and can't be bothered to actually do any real stories. Sure some news magazine style shows will report on the inequality of wages and stories about how hard it is for women in the work force but you'll notice they don't seem to show any of the stories in prime time when more people will watch.
I've noticed the abortion issue has always been a hot button issue as long as I've paid attention to it. There will always be people who are violently opposed to the issue and the media seems to help by highlighting the extremist point of view. How are people who bomb abortion clinics killing people any different from those who fly planes into buildings? To them the cause is just and if it means killing people so be it,they deserve it. And by giving them the attention they think they deserve the media keeps they cycle going. I've noticed gay rights seem to be a recent incarnation. When I was growing up you never heard the issue being debated. I'm not saying it wasn't out there but gay people were more ostracized and reviled than they are now. There are those out there still prejudiced against gays and very vocal I might add but the gay rights movement seems to have developed a more powerful voice and are trying to use it to their advantage. I'm of the opinion if they want to marry and aren't hurting anyone let them.

I'm not sure what your talking about with the "cutting" video. Maybe I've just been out of the loop and don't know what it refers to or it's something I know about but in a different context. I'd be happy to give an opinion if you'll elaborate further.

[darkelf105.livejournal.com]

Well put. I feel for mothers today. I think that if anything, the rights of mothers have backtracked immensely. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Most people expect women to have and want children, and if the polls and statistics are believed, that is about 90% of America. But then there are the women, like myself and most of my friends ( I will grant that we are young and may change our minds, as unlikely as it seems) that don't want any children. We are either told sweetly, not worry, we'll change our minds, or don't be silly, kids are the only things to live for. You'll want to be a mommy. Which is annoying. Just because I have ovaries doesn't mean I want to use them, however, I feel even worse for the women who decide to have children. If the woman doesn't have an education, like my mother, she will still be expected to work (but be made to feel guilty because she has to) and do ALL of the housework and EVERYTHING that pertains to the children. My father, though he works a demanding job, works the same forty hour work week and none of that is expected of him. He can just come home and go to bed, while my mother sits up and frets that there wasn't a dinner ready because she worked until nine and then had to go the store to buy groceries and thus didn't have time to. But then there are the women who have an education and expect to have a career. They too will either be expected to A) take time off of their career (which isn't expected of men) and thus hinder any social and or status change that they may have accrued because they have an education or B) will decide to work, in which case they will be considered terrible mothers for putting their careers before their children and then be hassled by their employers for having children and thus not wanting to work a sixty some hour work week. And fathers, if they don't want to, don't have to worry about any of that. Men are considered saints if they quit their jobs for their kids, or if they work a sixty some hour work week to feed their kids. But god forbid a woman do it and expect the husband and father to either quit his career or help at home. But that isn't to say that men don't want to. I don't think that anyone ever thinks about it. Or of both parents taking leave to both be actively engaged with child-rearing. Men lose out in this situation, too. I think that there are plenty of males who would like a hand at being the "stay-at-home-daddy" and it's a shame that they don't get a chance and mothers have to suffer. Even the term "mommy-track" is demeaning and I wish the media would stop using it. I really think parenting needs to be equal. Time needs to be put in equally by parents of both sexes. Father and Mother need to mean the same thing. In this country, apparently being a mother is all important, but moms don't get any slack cut for them. They are demeaned which ever way the choose and their children loose out because of outdated social roles. Their work is demeaned and their tiredness and stress is pooh-poohed as not as important because look at what their husband did all day. There is a huge "back to the family" and "family values" movement going on in this country, but honestly, I see very little value being put on families and women and more value being put on outmoded social roles that no longer make sense or are fair.

[tbcabbitt.livejournal.com]

Sorry for so late a reply but my mother was ill and I needed to take care of her.

Your right and nothing will change until more value is placed on just how important it is for parents to be equal. I know men who refuse to work overtime so they can spend time with their children and they are reviled for it. My father was never around very much when I was growing up. he was either at work or off doing something he wanted to do(fishing,bowling,etc) so he could relax because he worked hard. No one ever said my mother could have time off for herself even though she worked and took care of us kids and the house. That was what was expected of her and she did it without complaint. I can see changes in child rearing today but it isn't changing fast enough. I love the study that was done where they figured out what the salary of a housewife would be if you had to pay someone to do all the jobs that need done in a household. Even though the number was pretty high stay at home women aren't valued enough either. I'm sure more women would want to stay home and take care of their children but don't have that luxury because their salary is needed to keep the family going. Most men wouldn't even think about staying home and taking care of their children. It's the way most people of my generation were raised but hopefully succeeding generations will break away from that mold and parenting will be an equal endevour.
I did get to that part in the book where declining population was blamed on women who chose to not have children. I'm one of those who are looked at funny because I never wanted children. I'm with you in that I was told "oh, one day you'll see you want a baby". Sorry but at 45 I think that boat has sailed and I'm not the least bit bothered by it. That whole biological clock baloney always amused me. Maybe mine ran out of batteries but I never had an urge hit me to have children. If that's the only reason you want to bring a child into the world than you have bigger probelms than an internal clock ticking.
As for the whole family values thing I think that's a crock as well. It's just words to me. I don't see any of that happening. Maybe among some few groups but as a whole this country is too selfish to worry about anyone but themselves. I worked in the mall for 10 years in the open and was able to see the changes that occured with attitudes. When I first started people were polite, they wited their turn and had common human decency. Parents took their kids to the mall and watched over them and made sure they behaved. Toward the end of my time there I noticed that people were rude, impatient , and had no concern for anyone other than themselves. Parents now drop kids off at the door and expect them to be looked after by the people working there and don't care if they get out of control as long as they get some time away. I guess it comes down to the babies having babies issue. How can a person whose never experienced life and learned how to be a decent person teach these values to children. I'm sorry but my parents always knew where I was and what I was doing until I was 18. It seemed harsh at the time but I'm glad they looked after me. I think I'm a better person for it. How can a 12 year old whose never had that kind of supervision be expected to teach a child they have what they've never experienced. Kids these days are more mature I'm told but ya know parenting shouldn't have changed that much. Kids are being exposed to more adult things because we're letting them. If we protected them from themselves more I think society would be better as a whole.

very very late

[rokk-lobster.livejournal.com]

This post is rather late, so I am sorry.

I would first like to address that it will, unfortunately, be difficult for me to relate to many of the issues in this novel because I am a man. It is not that I cannot see the injustice of our society. I just have a hard time being able to relate to something that I have not experienced myself.

The next comment that I would like to add is the whole issue of the issues brought forth in the novel being outdated. It is my personal opinion that rights and freedoms should always be fought for no matter how much progress has been made. To say that the feminist movement is outdated is just like saying that racism is dead. A lot of progress has been made, but it is not enough progress to warrant growing complacent.

Unfortunately, real progress takes decades and centuries to come into effect. I guess that the point I am trying to ramble towards is that, when your equality is at stake, fighting for it is never outdated.